Talk:Passover Seder plate

Where's the image?

The picture of the Passover Seder Plate usually doesn't appear on my screen. When I did see it once, it looked rather sparse and didn't have all the items traditionally included on the Seder Plate. Yoninah 22:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• • • Not sure how to make a new discussion but someone is editing the article and putting idiotic things in, the seder plate absolutely does not have a bat wing or lion shank and there is no jewish temple in manchester, someone please fix!!!!*** — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.85.167 (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

¶ It is (or should be) well known that there is more than one arrangement of the seder plate in use. The one that seems in common use among American Jews (Ashkenaz) is that of the Ari (Rabbi Isaac ben-Shlomo Luria, 16th century Safed kabbalist). But there is also the arrangement of the Vilna Gaon (Rabbi Eliyahu ben-Shlomo Zalman, 18th century Lithuanian leader), and another by Rama (Moshe ben-Israel Isserles, Polish scholar). Some haggadot present diagrams of more than one seder plate design. I would dearly like to see these (and more) different arrangements presented (with illustrations) and explained, including their spiritual or supernatural significance. Sussmanbern (talk) 03:31, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• • I can check that later, I have a book that has all of the variations for Ashkenazim at least, the trick would be finding better sources. This page is little bit of a mess.Saxophonemn (talk) 07:12, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Orange

Recently, many feminist-sensitive Seders have placed an orange on the Seder plate. This is supposedly in response to a conservative rabbi stating that women belonged in the clergy like an orange on the Seder plate. I think this information might make the article more interesting and up-to-date. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Euroster (talk • contribs) 04:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

I have revived added the orange item, as it is notable. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The story about the conservative rabbi comparing a woman on the bimah to an orange on the seder plate appears to be an urban legend, though it's commonly told in liberal Jewish circles. I'm going to add a bit more detail to this item. Rickterp 14:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted this. It is a disgrace to Jewish culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.44.219 (talk) 19:45, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I restored it. You don't get to remove something just because you don't like it. It's well-sourced. If you continue to remove it, you'll be blocked. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion about the placement of the orange. Would it replace one of the six items on the seder plate, or would it become a seventh item? And then, in the latter case, where would it be placed? There seems to be an order to the items on the plate, so I think it's natural to assume that this would have a place in that order. Didier Olmstead (talk) 17:03, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

What is one supposed to not do with the egg?

"Since the destruction of the Temple, the beitzah serves as a visual reminder of the chagigah; it is either not eaten or handled during the Seder or eaten dipped in salt water (which represents tears)."

That sentence above could do with some clarifying. What is one not supposed to do with the egg, precisely? -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

"...such as Michael Aram's Pomegranate Seder Plate[5]"

Whenever I see the words "such as" in Wikipedia I expect some promotional text to follow. To my eyes, that text, coupled with the shopping site at footnote 5, do not disappoint. I'll leave it up to the regular editors here to decide whether this is promotion, and if it should remain. --CliffC (talk) 21:31, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

5, 6, 7?

Symbolic foods starts (correctly) with six foods, but then lists 5 bullets and after that "the seventh [food is] is matzo". Traditionally, matzo is counted as the sixth food. If I don't hear a comment why it says seventh, I will change it to "sixth" GvV (talk) 03:50, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I noticed this as well. It's quite confusing as written. Please do fix! ChelseaH (talk) 23 March 2013

The seventh symbolic item used during the meal — a stack of three matzos — is placed on its own plate on the Seder table. Then lower down:

The sixth symbolic item on the Seder table is a plate of three whole matzot, which are stacked and separated from each other by cloths or napkins.

So is someone going to clear this up? How about one name for the flat bread? Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.70.31.59 (talk) 23:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Olive

Adding an olive to the seder plate is well documented. eg see https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-seder-plate/ amongst all the other citations i included in the subheading. however a presumably politically motivated anon editor keeps deleting this section. as can be seen from their other wiki contributions they seem primarily interested in a fundamentalist, static representation of Judaism, rather than as it is actually practiced by Jews worldwide. I believe that the latter is what wikipedia should be documenting, and as such newer observances, where notable, such as adding an orange or olive, should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fleabite531 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I am not entirely happy with the text, and changed it slightly on reintroduction, but the material is well referenced and a Google search appears to indicate this is widely practiced. The attribution of its creation by the Jewish Voice for Peace may not be entirely accurate as it appears it has occurred previous to 2008. I will let editors more familiar with the subject weigh in. Ifnord (talk) 20:30, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Your rewording was useful. I've now added in a reference to it being done in 2003. I can add in more citations of Hagaddahs where it is mentioned but the news articles and myjewishlearning sites seem more relevant. I think it is interesting as part of the always ongoing evolution of traditional practises, and ways people make such relevant to them. Might be interesting to include a photo of a seder plate with these additional variants on? I can provide if it seems of interest? Fleabite531 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Basically no one includes an olive on the Seder plate. The traditional Seder plate has the six items listed, and the orange is the one modern addition that anyone has even heard of. The current section is a bunch of citations to a JTA article published on multiple sites, so they don't constitute multiple independent sources. That was basically a fluff piece listing every variant the author had heard of. It doesn't even say that anyone puts an olive on a Seder plate, just that there was one 2008 campaign to so. It even says that the main reason people would put an olive on the plate is completely different than the one listed in the article. To include the olive would necessitate also listing the other things in the articles, like tomatoes, chocolate, kiwis, and artichokes. All of these are more notable than olives, but none belong in the article, because they're just non-notable pieces of trivia. The only reason to include it would be the POV pushing of one small activist organization. You might as well list that a Seder plate appeared in an episode of Gossip Girl, which is true, verifiable, and more notable because many times more people saw that episode than have even heard of an olive on a Seder plate. 98.213.52.136 (talk) 20:42, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

You might not know anyone who puts an olive on their seder plate, but that is not the same as them not existing. I'm not claiming it is a majority of Jews, but it is a noteworthy variant. For example a search for "olive" at haggadot.com shows many examples of different people writing about having an olive to symbolise Palestine, peace etc. Apparently it even pre-dates the JVP 2008 proposal. In my experience it is the 2nd most common addition to the traditional seder plate, after oranges. It is so well known that even Jews who do not choose to do it themselves often know that it happens. "Basically no one includes an olive on the Seder plate" citation very much needed, as I have provided numerous sources, and could get more, that shows it is an acknowledged variant in common practice. Fleabite531 (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

This is a 2000 year old ritual done by millions of people worldwide. To include a one year campaign by a hundred person group is orders of magnitude of undue weight. The point of this article isn't to list everything that anyone has ever put on a Seder plate. You still haven't given an explanation of why out of the lists you want to cite, it makes sense to include just one of many items listed just one of several reasons listed for that item.98.213.52.136 (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Distinction from Halachic Based Variations Vs. Advocacy

The idea of equating an orange and olive on the seder plate with an ancient minhag/custom is misleading in that it gives a false equivalence to the practices. Saxophonemn (talk) 07:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)